Ukraine Discussion Thread

[Sweet]

I thought it would be interesting to get an opinion on the current situation in Ukraine from y'all! Everybody feel welcome to chime in.

Personally, I'm happy the situation is where it is, with Crimea in Russia's hands. While I think that the action was a major violation of Ukraine's sovereignty, I'd rather it end in peace than in war. My main worry is the justification of the actions. If Russia can get away with taking back an area with an "ethnic Russian population", could they do it again?

I really wanna hear from people who live in Europe, specifically Vampi, who's in Romania. You're right on the border of the Ukraine, are there any major concerns of violence or political upheaval there?

[unixfreak]

The people of Crimea voted to become part of Russia, and that is what happens when "Democracy" is carried out. The ironic thing is, the Western world (particularly UK / US and other NATO countries) always blab on about how they want to deliver "Democracy" to the people of other nations, and yet the current Ukrainian government wasn't even elected, but the West fully backs them and condemns Russias actions. It's laughable but unexpected that NATO countries support a fascist regime taking control of Ukraine.

Personally, i think the UK and the US have no business in the situation. I say that because of what happened in Iraq, they travelled halfway around the world to destroy a country on false pretenses and ruin its infrastructure and communities to the point of it becoming a third world country. Sure, Saddam wasn't a nice guy, but the state of Iraq was much better compared to how it is now (the same even applies to Libya after being pummeled by Western backed jihadists). How can they "condemn" Russia for taking strategic action on it's borders... they even have a naval base in Crimea -- which is there due to aggreements during the post soviet era when Ukraine became an independent nation. It simply has nothing to do with the US / UK. Russia has everything to do with it, imagine if China started a government coup in Mexico, right on the US borders...

The "opposition" in Ukraine, being the ones supporting the neo-nazi movement, are being backed by the West to destabilize the region (this is why the US/UK are calling 'bloody murder' over the Crimea refferendum, they didn't expect it would happen). I honestly think it's just a coup for imposing sanctions on Russia, and thus attempting to destroy its economy. With the state of the US defecit being in the trillions.... Russia and China are the two dominant countries just behind the US in the worlds economy. If the US can "indirectly" place sanctions on Russia, then it keeps them ahead on the world stage in terms of the global economy. After all, war makes money (sad, but true) -- with the US government pulling out of Iraq/Afghanistan, they need to start another war. Hopefully it doesn't come to that, because Russia has a detterent, unlike the countless nations that the West has bullied in the past.

The real problem for the US now, is that Russia is more likely to retalite the sanctions by dumping the US petro-dollar. That would be a HUGE problem, as it would allow smaller nations to follow, and become independent of the US dollar for trade in oil/gas and it would more than likely cripple the US economy even further. The crusade over the past few years in Libya... actually started because Gaddafi wanted to dump the US dollar for trade, and wanted to be paid in gold for the countries exported oil... as soon as that went 'official', NATO had to eliminate the threat by proxy, which is where your Western backed jihadists come into play -- or "rebels". The situation in Ukraine is unsurprisingly similar... in that it has one of the largest shale gas reserves in Europe.

If there were no gas. There would be no condemnation from the West. Or rather.... they would be condemning the current Ukrainian government. their involvement is to persue control of oil/gas reserves. A Ukrainian government that is allied with Russia, is not preferable for the West. They want to place a government that is allied to themselves.

[Sweet]

You're absolutely right about it being an action that is strategically justified. It reminds me of the situation of North Korea, where China has, in the past, backed North Korea almost solely because it's on their doorstep.

You make it seem as if the conflict solely exists of two sides- NATO backed rebels and the Pro-Russian Ukranian government. But do you think that there is a legitimacy to the protests? I mean, it seemed to me that at least SOME of the protesters were actually protesting for real- presumably the Ukraine's troublesome relationship with Russia. Is it safe to lump them in with neo-nazis?

[vampirefrog]

I'm not really up to date with the situation, all I know is Russia is performing some sort of aggression on Ukraine. Some people in my class started making a few paintings relating to the riots and violence, for an upcoming exhibition about the conflict in Ukraine, but I'm really not into that sort of thing. People on the street, violence, politics, it's not that I don't feel for them, but I'd rather not get into an aggravating mindset. I'm not part of the conflict, so I don't live the pain deeply, therefore my message would only be shallow, so I just stay away from that stuff.

I like positive and fun things, so I'm focusing on getting laid tbh.

I wish everybody a good result and a happy life.

[unixfreak]

You're absolutely right about it being an action that is strategically justified. It reminds me of the situation of North Korea, where China has, in the past, backed North Korea almost solely because it's on their doorstep.

You make it seem as if the conflict solely exists of two sides- NATO backed rebels and the Pro-Russian Ukranian government. But do you think that there is a legitimacy to the protests? I mean, it seemed to me that at least SOME of the protesters were actually protesting for real- presumably the Ukraine's troublesome relationship with Russia. Is it safe to lump them in with neo-nazis?

There would be legitimacy, but i'd say it was hijacked for political interference. Kinda like what's going on Syria. Where you had a legitimate protest group deciding they didn't want the current government/regime, and then along came the foreign backed groups (al Qa’ida, etc) which have hijacked the protest movement. By foreign backed, it could be arms/supplies/funds or simply media bias. The case in Ukraine, has it's legitimate protesters, but looks like it's been hijacked by neo-nazi fascists, or the "far-right" leaning groups. It gets to a point where people who initially protested, start to see the previous government as better, then stop protesting because the far-right (in this case) isn't what they wanted.

[Lazy Kat]

Personally, I'm happy the situation is where it is, with Crimea in Russia's hands. While I think that the action was a major violation of Ukraine's sovereignty, I'd rather it end in peace than in war.

Well here's the thing:
If it ends in war: We (as humans) need it. It is something we do not know how to live without, and it will help economics (partially because there will be less people afterward, and partially because we can aide our allies.) I know its cruel to say what I am, but population control is necessary. As it is, our population density is large enough to drive prices up. E.G. there was a broom closet in the UK being sold for millions.
If it ends in peace: Well, we'll see if that's possible, mate.

[Sweet]

Lazy Kat / Garm - I want to address your points.

If it ends in war: We (as humans) need it.

Increasing trends towards support of the concept of sovereignty (and trends towards hegemonic security) support the belief that large powers no longer need to war (although proxy wars are TOTALLY okay).

and it will help economics (partially because there will be less people afterward, and partially because we can aide our allies.)

Wars are for the most part huge economy crushers. Aside from the fact that raising more and more troops to maintain a steady presence in a war is labor intensive, the capital costs of war are immense. In layman's terms, "fancy guns cost a shit-ton". Government funding is being drawn from other things the economy needs. It is true that evidence from World War II points toward a fully utilized command economy as being a possible outcome of war, but the military industrial complex doesn't work like that anymore.

I know its cruel to say what I am, but population control is necessary.

I won't argue this because it's an opinion, but I will put in my two cents. Nobody should have to die for "population control". At least, there shouldn't need to be outstanding events that do a job that nature will do on its own. I also think as necessity rises to high enough levels, we'll rise off this rock, but that's a story for another day.

If it ends in peace: Well, we'll see if that's possible, mate.

At this point peace is the most likely outcome. Yes, sanctions have been put on Russia that are straining relationships, but there's no actual military rhetoric being thrown around anymore, most of it has died down. Besides, go beyond Ukraine and you're in NATO territory. Putin is smart, he doesn't want that.

So anyways I'm an international relations major and I'm really baked.

[Lazy Kat]

Nobody should have to die for "population control". At least, there shouldn't need to be outstanding events that do a job that nature will do on its own.

Here's the thing. As much as we have advanced, nature tries to intervene with our population, but we try so hard to avoid this. And as part of our not accepting nature's terms, we overpopulate ourselves. I'm not going to argue with ya too much about you being in college and all, mainly because I'm not even past High-school. Basically, nature tries to kill us, but only kills a few, because we interfere with the events to make ourselves survive. Ultimately what Im saying is: Yes, population control in needed, but not as noticeable as say, a war.

[Sweet]

I'm not going to argue with ya too much about you being in college and all, mainly because I'm not even past High-school.

Don't worry about that. Where I am in school doesn't necessarily mean I'm smarter than you 

Just say what you want.