I was coopediting today and someone mapwrecked, and this is basically 100% predictible. Someone is either bored and thinks mapwrecking is funny, but it's only funny to them. Other times it's just someone who doesn't know how to edit properly. I think some measures need to be implemented that attempt to eliminate mapwrecking.
Here's a tip, instead of the term 'mapfucking' use 'mapwrecking' it's friendlier.
Here are my ideas for ending mapwrecking. This is stuff that lacks in the sauer editor, and if they were implemented, coopediting would be much easier. The following ideas are in no particular order:
- Server-side map - the server keeps a copy of the map, and updates it automatically as players edit. This way, sendmap will not be needed anymore. Sendmap can still be available, but it won't need to be used as often. It can be used, for example, when you open up your own map and the server doesn't have it. There can be some sort of communication between the client and the server that makes the client automatically sendmap if the server doesn't have it. This can all be tweaked with settings variables. The map code can run in a different thread, so as to keep server network efficiency. Also, this can be disabled by a variable, to have old-style sendmap, like we do now.
- Allowed edit areas - for new joiners, only allow them to edit in an area of the map, thus disallowing them access to the whole map, and disallowing other players access to the new player's area. This way they can't break the map. Either that or allow players to define an area in which only they can edit. After that, add commands to allow other players to edit in your area. This way people cannot mapwreck the whole map. It can be setup so as each new player gets a new empty area, and can only edit in it, but can walk the other areas easily. This is both a client-side and a server-side modification.
- Send textures, cfgs and mapmodels. Maybe sounds and other assets too. This way it would be a lot easier to add custom content. In fact, with this implemented, a lot of the existing textures and models could be deleted from the distribution, and just downloaded with the map. I'm sure a lot of the existing textures are unused.
- Alternatively, add resource pack support - ie a zip file that can be downloaded from an URL, that contains a texture pack, mapmodel pack or whatever.
- Generating a zip file with all the necessary content for a map, for easy posting on websites.
- Having a player scale setting, so the size of the player can be chosen, and this should be per-map, so we can basically make the player bigger, and the details smaller. This way we can double the player in size and have finer detail in the map.
- Bezier patches, just like in quake 3. This would allow much easier curve making. Collision detection can also be done with the curves, although that is optional, since we can compensate with invisible cubes.
- Sending vcommands, like vscale, vrotate and so on. Currently they are not networked.
- vrotate should go up to 7, wherein vrotate 0-3 means rotate the texture, and vrotate 4-7 means vrotate the flipped texture. Currently it goes up to 5, wherein 4 means flipped, and 5 means flipped and rotated 90 degrees. Same goes for texrotate. Alternately add a vflip command.
- A friendlier user interface, and interactive tutorials, that take noobs through a few simple editing steps, and later introduce them to coopediting, and teaches a few things about etiquette as well. The tutorials can be text, and can be translated in many languages. This way we don't need to teach noobs, and mapwreckers have no excuse anymore.
- Limiting selection size and grid size (client & server), to avoid, again, wrecking, scroll spam and lag. Maybe add visual warnings to the client and maybe the admin too: "Warning, you have a large selection with a small grid size. Recommend using larger grid size!"
- Flood protection - from chat to map commands like remip and sendmap. Simply disallow some messages to be sent if the last time they were sent is too recent.
These are my ideas for improving the coopedit part of sauer. Contribute your own.
We can make a list of most wanted ideas, and note, these are strictly related to the editor part of the game, not other parts of the game. But I was thinking of making a list of top ten wanted ideas, and maybe we can then get someone to actually implement them. Maybe not eihrul, since he's busy with other things afaik, but I'm sure we can find someone, even if we have to raise money and pay them. Also, if you have ideas related to another aspect of the game, post in own thread.
The top way to prevent mapannihilators: password server
Doesn't get better than that.
Those others up there are good too.
Because of mapwrecking I can only unspec clan mambers and close friends, but I still don't like to have more than 3 people on the map when it's a serious project, you never know what they are doing and there's always someone who didn't listen to the "please don't edit" and is trying to improve the map in some weird way. I think it would be great if you could leave the "flightmode" as spectator and walk around the map as "ghost" (invisible for other players), so no one would have to be unspecced just to walk around. That shouldn't be too hard to do and I think it would be better if it was a sauer feature every server had than just a few modded ones, but eihrul would have to like that idea of course...
Quote from: Ardelico on June 02, 2013, 04:46:15 AM
password server
That's one way, but let me remind you that the way we met each other was on coopedit servers, when we took a chance and let someone new edit. The ideas I listed started with the intention of making the open mastermode (0) safer. Sure, mastermode 2 or even 3 is fine, but that greatly reduces the chance of meeting new and good coopeditors. In fact, I met someone yesterday and asked them to post in the joining section.
Quote from: Skur on June 02, 2013, 12:13:44 PM
Because of mapwrecking I can only unspec clan mambers and close friends, but I still don't like to have more than 3 people on the map when it's a serious project, you never know what they are doing and there's always someone who didn't listen to the "please don't edit" and is trying to improve the map in some weird way.
Yes, that's the worst part, when you're trying to concentrate on editing and others are not being very serious.
Quote from: Skur on June 02, 2013, 12:13:44 PM
eihrul would have to like that idea of course...
No, no he woudln't. Eihrul is not the only coder in the world that can improve sauer or tesseract. He's good, but the ideas we're coming up with are relatively easy to implement by any experienced coder. We don't need to depend on eihrul. He doesn't have the time,and perhaps not the attitude to add these improvements, as far as I know him. It shouldn't be hard to find someone to do these modifications. But I'd like to get them in order before we start searching.
Also, I'd like to bring OctaForge (http://octaforge.org/) to your attention. It is a fork of sauerbraten, I think it is a continuation if syntensity, that has many improvements, and may well include what we're looking for. However, it's still in beta and probably doesn't have many players. I haven't managed to install it yet, though.
Excellent ideas. I'd like to add to the list, but you seem to have gotten everything.
Quote from: vampirefrog on June 02, 2013, 04:08:48 AM
- Send textures, cfgs and mapmodels. Maybe sounds and other assets too. This way it would be a lot easier to add custom content. In fact, with this implemented, a lot of the existing textures and models could be deleted from the distribution, and just downloaded with the map. I'm sure a lot of the existing textures are unused.
OH MY GOD YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Quote from: vampirefrog on June 05, 2013, 07:56:49 PM
Quote from: Sweet on June 05, 2013, 07:30:20 PM
Quote from: vampirefrog on June 05, 2013, 05:38:11 PM
Quote from: Ardelico on June 02, 2013, 04:46:15 AM
mapannihilators
mapshaggers
mapfrustraters
octabangers
Yo dawg I heard you like quotes, so I put a quote, in yo quote, in yo quote, in yo quote, so you can quote while you quote, while you quote, while you quote, while you quote.
I'm pretty sure the clan cm| has a certain server client which does most of it (except modifying the octree, sending other files as .ogz and so).
Thinks like an addition to the command "texrotate" doesn't really seems to contribute the idea of stop mapwrecking actuallly =P. I agree with most of them though (yet I'm damn sure some of them are obviously a never happening).
Quote from: Sweet on June 03, 2013, 05:31:07 AM
Quote from: vampirefrog on June 02, 2013, 04:08:48 AM
- Send textures, cfgs and mapmodels. Maybe sounds and other assets too. This way it would be a lot easier to add custom content. In fact, with this implemented, a lot of the existing textures and models could be deleted from the distribution, and just downloaded with the map. I'm sure a lot of the existing textures are unused.
OH MY GOD YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
Well, In theory .obj files could be send easy and risk free also as it's just raw geometry with some texture-slots stored to certain groups of meshes.
sending ANYTHING is entirely too possible and even easy. Just use the same code that sends the ogz file to send other files. it doesn't matter whether it's easy or hard at this point.
anyway, I've come to a conclusion regarding sauebraten - being a free game, you can't expect anything at all from it. The editor is there just as a proof of concept, a really well-featured and well-maintained editor is miles away from what the coopedit part of sauer currently is. That being said, we can ask ourselves, how could the editor become better? How could we add these features and many more? Well, someone needs to develop it. Someone needs to spend time on it and make it into a proper editor, with lots and lots of features and usability enhancements.
But who, and why would they? Answer me this.
Quote from: vampirefrog on June 11, 2013, 11:29:32 PM
sending ANYTHING is entirely too possible and even easy. Just use the same code that sends the ogz file to send other files. it doesn't matter whether it's easy or hard at this point.
anyway, I've come to a conclusion regarding sauebraten - being a free game, you can't expect anything at all from it. The editor is there just as a proof of concept, a really well-featured and well-maintained editor is miles away from what the coopedit part of sauer currently is. That being said, we can ask ourselves, how could the editor become better? How could we add these features and many more? Well, someone needs to develop it. Someone needs to spend time on it and make it into a proper editor, with lots and lots of features and usability enhancements.
But who, and why would they? Answer me this.
Then we probably end up using Red Eclipse as it has a more enhanced coop-edit mode as Sauerbraten has. Then again, I still hate it's gameplay.
Quote from: Skur on June 02, 2013, 12:13:44 PM
Because of mapwrecking I can only unspec clan mambers and close friends, but I still don't like to have more than 3 people on the map when it's a serious project, you never know what they are doing and there's always someone who didn't listen to the "please don't edit" and is trying to improve the map in some weird way. I think it would be great if you could leave the "flightmode" as spectator and walk around the map as "ghost" (invisible for other players), so no one would have to be unspecced just to walk around. That shouldn't be too hard to do and I think it would be better if it was a sauer feature every server had than just a few modded ones, but eihrul would have to like that idea of course...
whats that skur? you dont like it when i add and remove that big cube in your map?? i was only trying to clear space for you! nothing but love.
Quote from: Mr.Fixxit694 on July 25, 2013, 02:46:41 AM
whats that skur? you dont like it when i add and remove that big cube in your map?? i was only trying to clear space for you! nothing but love.
:o